CT — March 1, 2006, 1:00 am
Dark Theologians
Does God have a dark side? Would he punish or even damn souls who don’t surrender to Him in this life? Even those who never heard? No second chances? Even in the afterlife? What looks like injustice to us is also injustice to God. There is no “higher” God justice that is comprehensable to us only as injustice. I John 1:5: “God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.” TNIV Do we really want to assign evil traits to a good God? Why would anyone who wants the Good, be attracted to such a God?
It’s not God that has the dark side. It’s the theologians that say these things.
Alright, you have my attention here. (I do read all your posts, btw.)
Do I understand you correctly to be saying that God does not punish those who rebel against Him in ignorance?
As you can tell by my recent posts, I’ve been reading Tony Campolo for the first time. He has a chapter called “Is There a Second Chance for Those Who Die Without Christ” in his book Speaking My Mind where he delves much deeper into this subject.
Two thoughts. First, I think we’re only talking about ultimate things here, such as how and where do we spend eternity. Second, I think the emphasis is on what seems evident to most people, not particular individuals, since people have all sorts of conflicting ideas about what God does or does not do. Crazy ideas. I doubt that God is constrained by what we think. But what does it mean that God is love?
I understand. How and why God allowed sin, and how He reacts to sin is a deep, deep subject and it can be useful to get a new perspective on it. Still, to imply that God cannot both punish sin and “be Love” flies in the face of an awful lot of Christian history and doctrine. I cannot imagine a scriptural argument that could support that implication, but Mr. Campolo seems to believe he has found one.
As egalitarians, we are obviously open minded about new interpretations of old verses, but this idea actually tinkers with things as solid as the Nicene Creed. I cannot imagine an interpretation that would overturn the commonly accepted meaning of:
Heb 9:27 TNIV Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Campolo is also calling for a new denomination (or group of denominations) that is conservative in its theology (or relatively conservative, maybe) and liberal in its politics. He’s quite taken with George MacDonald’s vision of a God who is a loving Father and not a condemning judge. MacDonald, of course, was turned out of his Congregational Church pulpit in 1853 for being heretical, so he turned to fiction to turn people away from what he called “a mean, poverty-stricken faith.”
MacDonald’s influence on C.S. Lewis is well-known. Lewis, after all, described people in a book called The Great Divorce as wanting to choose and actively choosing Hell. All you have to do, he argued, is look around in this world and see people doing that all the time. And Emeth, the pure-of-heart Calormene soldier of Lewis’ The Last Battle who had worshipped the false god Tash all his life is pronounced by Aslan to have found what he truly sought, the true God, even though the soldier had gotten the specifics during his life wrong.
So perhaps we shouldn’t go around blaming God for our limited view of life (or of theology — oh, we have it so right, don’t we). Maybe we need to trust God to do the loving thing, the right thing, ultimately, for his created creatures.
Philip Yancey calls himself a “recovering” Christian. “What do you mean you can’t tell Christians from non-Christians?” he asks. “I can. They’re the mean ones.”
And that I guess is what I mean by “dark” in my title of this posting.
I’m taking a second look at the Heb 9:27 verse you quoted. Here’s the rest of the sentence in verse 28: “[27] Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, [28] so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” TNIV Apparently we’re dying once, but how many times we’re facing judgment is not stated. Or maybe we face judgment once, but it’s on-going. And what is Jesus doing during that “second time?” Overseeing that judgment? If so, what’s he doing at that judgment? Bringing salvation? And who is it that is waiting? I know what premillenialists think, but isn’t there more than one way to look at that?
Being raised in fundamentalist Plymouth Brethren assemblies, I never once heard any of the creeds quoted, let alone recited. I think they were looked on as suspect. Certainly “solid” wasn’t an adjective that would have been used. One problem that any orthodoxy has is that unless the tenets are renewed and refreshed in every generation’s understanding and belief, the heart of the thing loses its truth. Therefore, having an atmosphere in which orthodoxy can be questioned and examined is a good thing.
My doubts at this point in my life have less to do with the faithfulness of God, than the “certainties” of my fellow Christians, theologically knowledgeable and honorable forebears included. Christianity certainly has been dragged down some awfully tortuous and unfortunate back alleys (to put it kindly) so bringing an openness to Biblical interpretation within a believers context would likely yield a deeper understanding of one’s faith and perhaps strengthen and re-energize the faith of the body of believers.
Welcome back, CT!
I hope all is well.
I know a little bit about the Plymouth Brethren, and am learning more reading LadyPowerscourt’s blog. I was in a third level derivative of the PB for 10 years, but it was VERY liberal compared to the real deal.
I enjoy MacDonald’s books, and Yancey’s too. I agree with you that we need to accept each other as living children of the Lord, rather than as doctrinal projects. I’m sorry for seeming to come at you this way. I don’t mean to correct your explorations and growth, though I do have opinions on the subject. As for the creeds, I was once scared of them myself, but I think some of the shorter ones have a real use for us.
In my opinion, universalism undermines some very important truths in the scripture. God’s Justice is strong and not deemed “dark” in the bible. I know this blog is not the place to hash this out, so I won’t press the issue. I also know that your concern is with “mean” theologians, and I can go with you there for quite a while! James 3:13ff seems to be forgotten in a lot of places!
If I may petition you, though, the people who need to hear the message of egalitarianism will react very negatively to a whiff of universalism. I would ask you to consider this doctrine very closely before you espouse it in this forum. I believe that some very “bright” and “light” theologians hold a clear view of God’s Justice, and that if you take a look at it you will see they have good reason to do so. I don’t know Tony Campolo, so I will not comment on his beliefs.
May the Lord bless you in the Way!
Campolo denies being a universalist and so am I at this point, mainly because of the great number of references in the Bible to the existence of Hell. Examining how we approach the subject of eternity, however, might have more positive results in how we approach those who need our Lord. God is not mean. He goes to great lengths to save us all. It needs to be emphasized that He wants absolutely no one to perish eternally. But our selfish natures and overwhelming desire to be in control of our own destinies, as Lewis has so effectively pointed out, means that people will continue to choose Hell, just as they did on Earth, and that to them Heaven will look like a very poor alternative. In other words, emphasizing one’s own ongoing choices and the eternal habits that are being developed here and now, will communicate God’s love better than threatening people constantly with dire consequences. If the physical world has consequences, it certainly makes sense that the spiritual world does, too. But it’s a matter of approach.
While this site is mainly about gender justice, I reserve the right to discuss frameworks within which gender justice is more likely, or less likely, to flourish. And the same negative attitude that is promulgated towards those who seem to be on other spiritual paths is a very similar attitude that excludes women from their place in God’s kingdom on Earth. I’m also intrigued by what’s being called the “Evangelical Left,” although I’m still trying to understand what is meant by that. It would be interesting to observe a church that operated under the beliefs and principles that Campolo delineates. I might be attracted.
Thanks, Codepoke, for responding. It helps to hone my thinking.
Well spoken, CT. Thanks for considering my thoughts.
Lord bless, and I look forward to more from you!